Triumph 955i fuel injector O-ring research

Tiger's still not working (see previous post). Here's my best guess: the new fuel pump has caused the old O-rings in the fuel line to leak causing a vacuum leak, so I'm digging for new O-rings, but of course Triumph doesn't sell them anymore and seems to go out of their way to not tell you what size they are. Wouldn't it be nice if a manufacture who don't support their bikes after only 20 years at least open sourced the specs so the aftermarket could pick them up?

Anyway, off to the internet I go to research! Here are the notes:

https://www.thetriumphforum.com/threads/triumph-2003-955i-cutting-out-when-throttle-blipped.27324/page-3

"There is a O ring on the Tps (throttle position sensor) that gets worn and swells causing a voltage delay when closing the throttle causing the incorrect signal to the ECU.

Cure? Simply remove this O ring haha, So i did this last night and took her for a test ride this morning whilst picking up some essentials. BINGO!"

Part 23 = T3600053 | O ring
Part 4 = Throttle potentiometer Part Number: T1290500 - but it doesn't look like it has an O-ring involved in it, so that advice is suspect.

12 = O ring. Rail, Part Number: T360005313 = O Ring, Injector, Upper Part Number: T1245016
14 = O Ring, Injector, Lower Part Number: T1240806

Store: The O-Ring Store https://www.theoringstore.com/store/

Parts: V3.00x008 V75 (upper), and V2.40x009.6 (lower) - those are the dimensions (upper = 3

Suggestions from forums on potential issues: "Don't be surprised if you find that the end of your fuel line is actually cracking at the fitting. I chased O rings for a while and discovered that to be my source instead."

"the union (which is plastic) was the culprit. It was cracked and just giving it a wee jiggle made it worse"https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/955-sprint-fuel-o-ring-rubber-sizes.163915/
Fuel Fitting O-Rings

* Triumph O RING, FUEL PIPE CONNECTOR - T1240181
* Buna-N O-Rings - #9452K19 McMaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/

o SPECS
+ AS568A Dash Number: 010
+ Type: O-Ring
+ O-Ring Type: Standard
+ Width: 1/16"
+ Actual Width: .070"
+ Inside Diameter: 5/16"
+ Actual Inside Diameter: .301"
+ Outside Diameter: 7/16"
+ Actual Outside Diameter: .441"
+ Material: Buna-N
+ Durometer: Hard
+ Durometer Shore: Shore A: 70
+ Temperature Range: -35° to +250°F
+ Color: Black
* Viton O-Rings - #9464K16 McMaster-Carr

o SPECS
+ AS568A Dash Number: 011
+ Typ:e O-Ring
+ System of Measurement: Inch
+ Width: 1/16" (1.5875mm)
+ Inside Diameter: 5/16" (7.938mm)
+ Outside Diameter: 7/16" (11.113mm)
+ Material: Viton
+ Durometer: Hard
+ Durometer Shore: Shore A: 75
+ Temperature Range: -15° to +400°F
+ Color: Black
https://www.theoringstore.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=38145

NAPA cross reference on this O-ring is:
Part Number: BK 7272011
Product Line: Balkamp
Dimensions : 5/16" I.D. x 7/16" O.D. x 1/16" W ( 7.938mm I.D. x 11.113mm O.D. x 1.5875mm W )
Material Type : Buna-N-Nitrile
SAE or Metric : SAE

QUESTION: are the upper and lower O-rings different (I'm assuming so because Triumph gave them different part numbers). - they are different thicknesses.

"The upper o-ring is approximately 15mm outer diameter with a 3.5mm cross-section, while the lower o-ring is about 15mm outer diameter with a 2mm cross-section"

2mm wide lower: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07GJK53QJ/
3.5mm wide upper: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07JWCD86K/
I'll give these a go and see how they do.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/156327987779 - that's high-larious! Forty bucks for an (as in ONE!) 20 year old O-ring! It ain't just the stealerships who cane you for these parts (when they deign to sell them).

https://theinjectorshop.com/en-ca/products/fuel-injectors-rebuild-repair-o-ring-kit-for-triumph-sprint-st-tiger-1050-2007-2009?_pos=1&_sid=00ce905cd&_ss=r

Hmm, do 1050 tigers use the same O-rings/injectors?

2007 Tiger 1050 parts:
O Ring, Injector, Upper T1245016 (same as 955i part)
O Ring, Injector, Lower T1245006 not - damn it!

Hey, Tim. Try using AI to solve this problem! Here's Perplexity.ai (on 'pro' mode!)

Adamantly and repeatedly incorrect. So much for HAL 9000 fixing the Tiger. I'll give those Amazon parts a try and let you know the results.

NAPA details: https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/PSH71169 Part #: PSH 71169
.301 ID X .070 W (7.645mm ID X 1.778mm) why only show the inside diameter?

Deja vu: https://tkmotorcyclediaries.blogspot.com/2023/10/finding-your-way-around-oems-giving-up.html

Based on that the 15mm outside diameter 3.5 and 2mm thickness is a pretty close guess.
Why doesn't NAPA provide full dimensions: https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/ELR429060? I'm going to run over to our local with the two O-rings and see if they'll help me match them up, but the site could be more helpful.

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/fuel-line-union-o-rings.978549/

O-rings for the fuel fittings to the tank (they are stainless steel on mine): "they are A010 and if you are in the USA you can get a kit from Harbor Freight with a bunch of them for $10.  There is also a metric size I found that was a little thicker which might give you more confidence but require some petroleum jelly to get the fitting in. Don't be surprise d if you find that the end of your fuel line is actually cracking at the fitting. I chased O rings for a while and discovered that to be my source instead."

Going for (yet another) fueling fix on the 955i Triumph Tiger

 It's a tricky thing finding the parts you need on a bike no longer supported by its manufacturer, but I keep getting lucky with quality aftermarket providers, in this case Quantum Fuel Systems out of California.

Ordering was easy, transport was astonishingly quick and transparent and I had the kit on hand less than 48 hours after I ordered it. I haven't had many better shipping experiences.

I went with Quantum because they had a full kit including hardware and a fuel filter (because none of that is available through the dealer). No instructions came with the kit but the pump, filter and strainer (all included in the kit) are an easy fit, especially when you've got the original sitting in front of you to work from. The whole thing took about half and hour from removing the plate it's attached to on the tank through to having it back together again.

This is where the fuel pump plate bolts to the tank.

The original pump (mounted in front), fuel filter (behind) and strainer off to the right.

Disassembly was straightforward. One of the nice things about an immersed system like this is that rust can't get at it.

The new bits installed, very straightforward.

You can see the difference in colour with the strainer. The old one was stiff as well as discoloured. With all new parts I'm hoping this magically restores the Tiger to regular fueling duties. I've seen some other comments suggesting that this is the silver bullet when it comes to old Triumph 955i fueling headaches.

It's all back in the tank again now. I'll get the bike back together and if the snow holds off take it for a spin, hopefully with a sense of resolution.

Update

Got it back together again and the new fueling bits have solved the starting problems (it fires on the button again) and it idles steadily again - a bit high even (but I'd been messing with the fuel maps to try and bump up idle speeds). I've since reinstalled the stock map and it starts and idles well.. But as with everything fueling related on this thing, one solution has caused another problem.

Previously the throttle worked fine but it wouldn't start or idle. Now it starts and idles but if you touch the throttle is stalls. My first thought is that this might be because the new throttle cable wasn't adjusted right, so I loosened it off and gave it the required slack the manual suggests. It still stalls when you touch the throttle.

The next thought was perhaps the new fuel pump and filters have messed with the throttle body synchronization (this bike is notoriously finicky about this). So, I took the fuel tank off (again - can't count how many times now) and rebalanced everything yesterday. We've got our first snows of the year now so I can't take it for a spin, but I'm hoping to have it all back together (again) this week and see if I've got a working Tiger.

If you want a sense of how perilous fueling is on 955i Triumphs, Classic Bike Magazine (my go to for genuinely helpful advice on keeping old bikes running since Practical Sportsbikes closed down and got folded into CB who now support a much wider range of machines) had a piece on the 955i Speed Triple (one of my all time favourite bikes). Page two had the enlightening piece to the right.

Fueling on these old Triumphs is a known headache. I've sold on bikes I've become frustrated with before and the problem hangs in my mind. Rather perversely, I need to figure out what's wrong with the Tiger before I sell it rather than just selling it on in this state. Not knowing what the problem is will drive me nuts. On the upside, if I become one of the 'very few people with experience of the Segem fuel injection', I'd be able to pick up a 955i Speed Triple that isn't working for a song.

Doing this after the Tiger, now *that* would be perverse!

Tiger, or not to Tiger, that is the question: Triumph 955i Winter To Do List

 Problems

Yes, I'm swearing at it.

• The idle control problem has returned (stalling)
• This is happening with no errors in the computer (all sensors working then?)
• Fuelly smell (leak? mixture too rich, but with no errors?)
• Poor starting is new (takes many attempts - might be a wiring issue?)
• Triumph not supporting the bike any more with parts or service
• Not a popular model/make, even finding used parts a challenge
• I'm told that this wasn't a bike built to last (with the two above points this is problematic)
• New throttle cable may not be adjusted correctly

Recent Attempts to fix

• new throttle and clutch cables
• balanced throttle bodies and checked valve clearances in the summer
• cleaned the relays under the seat and it started easier (but still not on the button as it used to)

Winter Targets

• 
  recheck all the possible points of failure
• valves
• check throttle position sensor
• check fuel pump (but then do what? Fuel Pump Factory pump replacement - but where to find the filter? Quantum Fuel Systems kit comes with one.
• throttle bodies balanced
• throttle cable adjusted
• replace all fuel o-rings and check for seal
• clean all wiring connectors
• double check all connectors for tightness/connection
• torque set everything with easy reach
• follow the book and keep it tight to spec (don't do any of it from memory)
• Only change the oil (less than a 1000k on it since last change) if everything else is promising (saving myself $120+ in the process)

Goal

• Resolve starting issues
• Resolve fueling issues
• Stabilize the bike and sell it (?)
• What might change my mind:
• understanding the ongoing fueling headaches
• understanding whether they are fixable with the resources I have
• determining if ongoing ownership is worth the hassle
• If viable, consider the 2001 low mileage bike
• Upgrade the headlamps to LED
• Ride the bike to the usual 5k+ kms next summer or
• Sell it for what I purchased it for 8+ years ago

If the Tiger problems are diagnosable (ie: it's not of an age that it's simply falling to pieces) and solvable with the resources I've got, aim at 100k by end of 2025. If it's too 'disposable' and unsupported, move it on to someone with the time and patience to deal with it.

$1900 in Windsor. $1500 for the bike and another $300
to get a van to go get it? If the Tiger warrants long term
ownership then this move makes sense. It has <30k on it!

What do I hope? I can find the time to make it viable and ride it until it's the last one on the
road in Canada. If that happens picking up the parts bike from Windsor makes sense. Perhaps I could park it in the shed and only go to it when I need parts.

The alternative is to let the bike I've put the most miles on and have owned the longest go. My already limited brand loyalty has been stretched to breaking by the lack of support from Triumph. The Tiger replaced a 22 year old Kawasaki 1000GTR/C10 that I had no trouble finding parts and even service for. In between I had a '97 Fireblade that Honda was happy to support, but not so for Triumphs that were built up to only a few years ago.

I'd like to spend my riding years riding more than spannering. The C14/1400GTR has been dependable and with my various adjustments on it I'm still finding that I'm learning about it, though its road focus means I can't trail ride like I do on the Tiger. With the Tiger gone my accidental Kawasaki fixation (I don't go looking for them, they seem to appear when I need them to), I'm tempted to see if a KLR650 would do the dual sporting I'm missing on the Concours. It would certainly be more off road friendly than the heavier, fragile, unsupported Tiger.

Other options could be a Royal Enfield Himalayan, Tenere 700 or CRF 300 Honda (though they aren't good with bigger riders, which I am). The KLRs are plentiful, not overly expensive and well understood as the model has been going forever. I've also got a Kawasaki dealer 10 minutes from the house (as opposed to the 2+ hours for Triumph).

The long bomb would be going in a completely different direction and getting something like a Moto Guzzi V85TT, though that puts me back into potentially fragile, poorly supported European manufacturer territory (they sure are pretty though). If I'm looking for a bike to put miles, it probably isn't that one. Perhaps when I'm riding less one will find a spot in the garage.

This winter will answer this existential question:

Tiger, or not to Tiger? That is the question.

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous mileage,

Or to take arms against a sea of manufacturer unsupported troubles

And by opposing end them.

Taking a 955i Tiger from Triumph Engineers to Vintage Ownership

 I'm bound and determined to keep the old Tiger in motion. Triumph has abandoned me in
terms of parts support, but there is another way and Classic Bike Magazine shows you how to find it. I used to depend on Practical Sports Bikes for keeping these pre-classics in motion, but they killed it.

Rick Parkington writes a lot about the transition from standard manufacturer supported bike ownership to vintage bike ownership, but what he's really on about is keeping a bike in motion when the plug-and-play relationship with modern bike parts isn't an option any more. For a modern Triumph that happens about 20 years after they build it (I've had older Kawasakis and Hondas that kept providing parts, but I digress).

The biggest thing to get your head around is being ready to find alternatives that meet the needs you're facing rather than following the manual and hoping for parts to arrive that you can swap in. One of my issues on a 90k+ bike is slack in the machine. The throttle stop has worn down over many miles so I've been playing with putting a spacer nut on there.

When I had it apart today I used the grinder to try two different cuts of nut to get my idle back to where it should be. The middle one gives me perhaps a mm of recovered space on the pin that catches the throttle when it returns to idle at a point that doesn't make the engine struggle.

Another one of those vintage approaches is around battling fasteners. You can never assume something will come off as it should. In this case the fastener on the throttle casing on the handlebar creates swear words.

While I had it apart today I put in two new cables (throttle and clutch). Thanks to Rogx in Germany (who are still producing new cables for the 955i Tiger which was popular there), I got two new cables with all the hardware and it arrived early and with no headache (I love dealing with Germans!).

The clutch cable was fraying by the transmission so it was well past time. My thought is that if this one lasts as long as the first one (over 90k), then I'll be happy. I ran both cables next to the existing ones to get the runs right and then removed the old ones afterwards. It was a satisfying rainy Sunday afternoon in the garage.

No complaints (other than Triumph not supporting its own machines when they are less than 20 years old). These cables both did over 90k through brutal Canadian temperature changes.

A satisfying Sunday afternoon getting the Tiger sorted. I think another couple of hours and I'll have it back in motion for the end of the riding season here.

I wrote this as I was catching up on the Indonesian Grand Prix in MotoGP after a crazy (but awesome) week at work. I lost Marc after the Valentino incident back in 2015, but I'm starting to find my Marquez fandom again...

The Struggle is Real: Trying to Keep a Triumph 955i Tiger on the Road

The 'Idle Speed Control Valve Housing' (Part Number: T1241064) continues to be a pain in my ass. This housing sits behind the throttle body on my 2003 Triumph Tiger 955i and it seems Triumph isn't supporting them anymore. My local dealer shrugged and said it isn't available any more, so I went further afield.

Blackfoot Motosports in Calgary's site seemed to suggest that they could provide this complex plastic piece that doesn't enjoy Canada's extreme temperature swings (I've gone through 2 of them so far). So I ordered it! Guess what:

That an O-ring should take 3 weeks is one thing, but the housing is obsolete? On a bike that's only just 20 years old? So, I did a little research. It turns out this product fits 84 vehicle variants across four Triumph Models between 1993 and 2020. A part that was in use on models four years ago is obsolete? That doesn't sound right.

No matter where I look the story is the same: this key part of the idle control system on thousands of bikes isn't available?  Being a determined sort, I looked to ebay for options and came across Bike Spares Barn in the UK. They take bikes traded in at dealers that are still running and on the road and dismantle them for parts, which is what I'm reduced to using with my Triumph.

They had a throttle body with the needed idle control housing on it along with an airbox. My airbox isn't in great shape so I got both parts. They worked out with shipping to be about $300CAD. It took a good 3 weeks for the parts to get here (I ordered right after the holidays so I can't really fault the timeline). The seller was very communicative with what was going on so, unlike some ordering experiences, I was never left wondering where things were.

The box finally arrived and looked like someone had been playing football with it. Two corners were mashed in and a piece of the airbox was sticking out of the box. I unwrapped it and everything looked OK so I began to clean and dismantle everything. The airbox was a good idea, this one is in much better shape than my 24 Canadian winters one, but the throttle body didn't fare so well. 

Inevitably, the only broken piece on the damned thing was the fragile idle housing, which was cracked around the base in exactly the same place that the one I'm trying to replace is.

So, I'm back where I started, but with a spare throttle body and two broken idle housings. This damned thing is so complicated that fabricating an alternative isn't likely. The three pipes on the bottom go out to each throttle body and servo sits inside that is moved up and down electrically adjusting the vacuum so passages open up to each throttle and modulate the idle so the bike doesn't stall. When this complex and fragile piece doesn't work as it should the bike hesitates on acceleration and stalls.

Obviously this wasn't the case because the bike it came from was working fine (they tested it before dismantling it), but it didn't survive ebay's international shipping service. I asked Bike Spares Barn what to do and they said to go through ebay's return/refund process, but ebay is cagey about sharing that anyware. Fortunately Peter at Bike Spares Barn helped me navigate the obfuscation and we've now gotten me a refund... but I'm still stuck without this part.

I've asked before and I'll say it again: if you're not willing or able to support your own machines, Triumph Motorbikes, how about sharing publicly the CAD files on this part so after market and crafty types like myself can fabricate our own? With the right fuel resistant plastic in a 3d printer, I could knock up my own version. But before I did I'd reinforce the model and design something more robust so I'm not left out in the cold again.

The happy face getting the solution to my problem in (the box on the bench)... then, well, you know what happened.

Lots of 8s

 

I've been on the road for work for the past couple of weeks (Newfoundland is spectacular!) The weather from there followed us back and we haven't seen the sun for many days, until this weekend! It finally broke and I've gotten some riding in.

I was hoping to get the old Tiger to 100k this year in its 20th year on the road. On the way to that I managed to hit eighty-eight thousand, eight hundred and eighty-eight kilometres! Very satisfying, and the bike looked great doing it:

I pushed my luck the next day and took Connie out for a couple of hours to Hockley Valley and back...

Weather's been good this week too, maybe we're finally into spring time! I had the C14 out again for a ride over to the Forks of the Credit after work today... time to make some miles!

Winter Maintenance: Fuel Injectors on a 955i Triumph

 It's been a busy winter and I haven't gotten as much done in the garage as I'd hoped, but breaks in the gloom are beginning to appear so I spent the weekend getting the Tiger sorted and giving plastic welding my first go.

2003 Triumph Tiger 955i Fuel Injector Maintenance

The old Tiger is up at about 90k on the odometer. I did a deep maintenance a couple of winters back (swing arm out, everything gone over from the wheels up) and that seemed to solve most issues, except the fuel injection. These early electronic fuel injection systems in 955i Triumphs is touchy. What I've found that worked is to pull the injectors each winter and deep clean them in the ultrasonic bath, so that's what last weekend was.

Injectors out! I put the end without the electrical connector into the ultrasonic cleaner and give it 10 minutes at 60°C. Once out I clean them up and back in they go. No hesitation or idling problems since.

That vacuum run stepper motor (upper left) is what manages the idle control system - it's touchy! Make sure you've got good vacuum hoses (the black ribbed ones in the pic) and the gasket for the stepper motor is in good shape, or you'll be stalling... a lot. I'm sorting a threaded holder for the fuel injectors here.

Tank off gave me a chance to sort out the airbox, which I now seal with gasket material. At almost 90k, maintenance takes on jobs like rethreading bolts and gasketing tired airboxes to keep everything tight.

Found a stowaway on the airbox under the gas tank. Probably good luck?

Tiger is back together again and ready to take a run at 100k in it's 20th season.

How well did it work? We had a break in the polar vortex (it was -30° last week). In 5°C we went for a blast up and down the nearby river roads and it felt sharp. Doing that bit extra with an older high mileage bike when it comes to maintenance is the key to a happy riding season.