Triumph 955i fuel injector O-ring research

Tiger's still not working (see previous post). Here's my best guess: the new fuel pump has caused the old O-rings in the fuel line to leak causing a vacuum leak, so I'm digging for new O-rings, but of course Triumph doesn't sell them anymore and seems to go out of their way to not tell you what size they are. Wouldn't it be nice if a manufacture who don't support their bikes after only 20 years at least open sourced the specs so the aftermarket could pick them up?

Anyway, off to the internet I go to research! Here are the notes:

https://www.thetriumphforum.com/threads/triumph-2003-955i-cutting-out-when-throttle-blipped.27324/page-3

"There is a O ring on the Tps (throttle position sensor) that gets worn and swells causing a voltage delay when closing the throttle causing the incorrect signal to the ECU.

Cure? Simply remove this O ring haha, So i did this last night and took her for a test ride this morning whilst picking up some essentials. BINGO!"

Part 23 = T3600053 | O ring
Part 4 = Throttle potentiometer Part Number: T1290500 - but it doesn't look like it has an O-ring involved in it, so that advice is suspect.

12 = O ring. Rail, Part Number: T360005313 = O Ring, Injector, Upper Part Number: T1245016
14 = O Ring, Injector, Lower Part Number: T1240806

Store: The O-Ring Store https://www.theoringstore.com/store/

Parts: V3.00x008 V75 (upper), and V2.40x009.6 (lower) - those are the dimensions (upper = 3

Suggestions from forums on potential issues: "Don't be surprised if you find that the end of your fuel line is actually cracking at the fitting. I chased O rings for a while and discovered that to be my source instead."

"the union (which is plastic) was the culprit. It was cracked and just giving it a wee jiggle made it worse"https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/955-sprint-fuel-o-ring-rubber-sizes.163915/
Fuel Fitting O-Rings

* Triumph O RING, FUEL PIPE CONNECTOR - T1240181
* Buna-N O-Rings - #9452K19 McMaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/

o SPECS
+ AS568A Dash Number: 010
+ Type: O-Ring
+ O-Ring Type: Standard
+ Width: 1/16"
+ Actual Width: .070"
+ Inside Diameter: 5/16"
+ Actual Inside Diameter: .301"
+ Outside Diameter: 7/16"
+ Actual Outside Diameter: .441"
+ Material: Buna-N
+ Durometer: Hard
+ Durometer Shore: Shore A: 70
+ Temperature Range: -35° to +250°F
+ Color: Black
* Viton O-Rings - #9464K16 McMaster-Carr

o SPECS
+ AS568A Dash Number: 011
+ Typ:e O-Ring
+ System of Measurement: Inch
+ Width: 1/16" (1.5875mm)
+ Inside Diameter: 5/16" (7.938mm)
+ Outside Diameter: 7/16" (11.113mm)
+ Material: Viton
+ Durometer: Hard
+ Durometer Shore: Shore A: 75
+ Temperature Range: -15° to +400°F
+ Color: Black
https://www.theoringstore.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=38145

NAPA cross reference on this O-ring is:
Part Number: BK 7272011
Product Line: Balkamp
Dimensions : 5/16" I.D. x 7/16" O.D. x 1/16" W ( 7.938mm I.D. x 11.113mm O.D. x 1.5875mm W )
Material Type : Buna-N-Nitrile
SAE or Metric : SAE

QUESTION: are the upper and lower O-rings different (I'm assuming so because Triumph gave them different part numbers). - they are different thicknesses.

"The upper o-ring is approximately 15mm outer diameter with a 3.5mm cross-section, while the lower o-ring is about 15mm outer diameter with a 2mm cross-section"

2mm wide lower: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07GJK53QJ/
3.5mm wide upper: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07JWCD86K/
I'll give these a go and see how they do.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/156327987779 - that's high-larious! Forty bucks for an (as in ONE!) 20 year old O-ring! It ain't just the stealerships who cane you for these parts (when they deign to sell them).

https://theinjectorshop.com/en-ca/products/fuel-injectors-rebuild-repair-o-ring-kit-for-triumph-sprint-st-tiger-1050-2007-2009?_pos=1&_sid=00ce905cd&_ss=r

Hmm, do 1050 tigers use the same O-rings/injectors?

2007 Tiger 1050 parts:
O Ring, Injector, Upper T1245016 (same as 955i part)
O Ring, Injector, Lower T1245006 not - damn it!

Hey, Tim. Try using AI to solve this problem! Here's Perplexity.ai (on 'pro' mode!)

Adamantly and repeatedly incorrect. So much for HAL 9000 fixing the Tiger. I'll give those Amazon parts a try and let you know the results.

NAPA details: https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/PSH71169 Part #: PSH 71169
.301 ID X .070 W (7.645mm ID X 1.778mm) why only show the inside diameter?

Deja vu: https://tkmotorcyclediaries.blogspot.com/2023/10/finding-your-way-around-oems-giving-up.html

Based on that the 15mm outside diameter 3.5 and 2mm thickness is a pretty close guess.
Why doesn't NAPA provide full dimensions: https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/ELR429060? I'm going to run over to our local with the two O-rings and see if they'll help me match them up, but the site could be more helpful.

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/fuel-line-union-o-rings.978549/

O-rings for the fuel fittings to the tank (they are stainless steel on mine): "they are A010 and if you are in the USA you can get a kit from Harbor Freight with a bunch of them for $10.  There is also a metric size I found that was a little thicker which might give you more confidence but require some petroleum jelly to get the fitting in. Don't be surprise d if you find that the end of your fuel line is actually cracking at the fitting. I chased O rings for a while and discovered that to be my source instead."

Going for (yet another) fueling fix on the 955i Triumph Tiger

 It's a tricky thing finding the parts you need on a bike no longer supported by its manufacturer, but I keep getting lucky with quality aftermarket providers, in this case Quantum Fuel Systems out of California.

Ordering was easy, transport was astonishingly quick and transparent and I had the kit on hand less than 48 hours after I ordered it. I haven't had many better shipping experiences.

I went with Quantum because they had a full kit including hardware and a fuel filter (because none of that is available through the dealer). No instructions came with the kit but the pump, filter and strainer (all included in the kit) are an easy fit, especially when you've got the original sitting in front of you to work from. The whole thing took about half and hour from removing the plate it's attached to on the tank through to having it back together again.

This is where the fuel pump plate bolts to the tank.

The original pump (mounted in front), fuel filter (behind) and strainer off to the right.

Disassembly was straightforward. One of the nice things about an immersed system like this is that rust can't get at it.

The new bits installed, very straightforward.

You can see the difference in colour with the strainer. The old one was stiff as well as discoloured. With all new parts I'm hoping this magically restores the Tiger to regular fueling duties. I've seen some other comments suggesting that this is the silver bullet when it comes to old Triumph 955i fueling headaches.

It's all back in the tank again now. I'll get the bike back together and if the snow holds off take it for a spin, hopefully with a sense of resolution.

Update

Got it back together again and the new fueling bits have solved the starting problems (it fires on the button again) and it idles steadily again - a bit high even (but I'd been messing with the fuel maps to try and bump up idle speeds). I've since reinstalled the stock map and it starts and idles well.. But as with everything fueling related on this thing, one solution has caused another problem.

Previously the throttle worked fine but it wouldn't start or idle. Now it starts and idles but if you touch the throttle is stalls. My first thought is that this might be because the new throttle cable wasn't adjusted right, so I loosened it off and gave it the required slack the manual suggests. It still stalls when you touch the throttle.

The next thought was perhaps the new fuel pump and filters have messed with the throttle body synchronization (this bike is notoriously finicky about this). So, I took the fuel tank off (again - can't count how many times now) and rebalanced everything yesterday. We've got our first snows of the year now so I can't take it for a spin, but I'm hoping to have it all back together (again) this week and see if I've got a working Tiger.

If you want a sense of how perilous fueling is on 955i Triumphs, Classic Bike Magazine (my go to for genuinely helpful advice on keeping old bikes running since Practical Sportsbikes closed down and got folded into CB who now support a much wider range of machines) had a piece on the 955i Speed Triple (one of my all time favourite bikes). Page two had the enlightening piece to the right.

Fueling on these old Triumphs is a known headache. I've sold on bikes I've become frustrated with before and the problem hangs in my mind. Rather perversely, I need to figure out what's wrong with the Tiger before I sell it rather than just selling it on in this state. Not knowing what the problem is will drive me nuts. On the upside, if I become one of the 'very few people with experience of the Segem fuel injection', I'd be able to pick up a 955i Speed Triple that isn't working for a song.

Doing this after the Tiger, now *that* would be perverse!

Tiger, or not to Tiger, that is the question: Triumph 955i Winter To Do List

 Problems

Yes, I'm swearing at it.

• The idle control problem has returned (stalling)
• This is happening with no errors in the computer (all sensors working then?)
• Fuelly smell (leak? mixture too rich, but with no errors?)
• Poor starting is new (takes many attempts - might be a wiring issue?)
• Triumph not supporting the bike any more with parts or service
• Not a popular model/make, even finding used parts a challenge
• I'm told that this wasn't a bike built to last (with the two above points this is problematic)
• New throttle cable may not be adjusted correctly

Recent Attempts to fix

• new throttle and clutch cables
• balanced throttle bodies and checked valve clearances in the summer
• cleaned the relays under the seat and it started easier (but still not on the button as it used to)

Winter Targets

• 
  recheck all the possible points of failure
• valves
• check throttle position sensor
• check fuel pump (but then do what? Fuel Pump Factory pump replacement - but where to find the filter? Quantum Fuel Systems kit comes with one.
• throttle bodies balanced
• throttle cable adjusted
• replace all fuel o-rings and check for seal
• clean all wiring connectors
• double check all connectors for tightness/connection
• torque set everything with easy reach
• follow the book and keep it tight to spec (don't do any of it from memory)
• Only change the oil (less than a 1000k on it since last change) if everything else is promising (saving myself $120+ in the process)

Goal

• Resolve starting issues
• Resolve fueling issues
• Stabilize the bike and sell it (?)
• What might change my mind:
• understanding the ongoing fueling headaches
• understanding whether they are fixable with the resources I have
• determining if ongoing ownership is worth the hassle
• If viable, consider the 2001 low mileage bike
• Upgrade the headlamps to LED
• Ride the bike to the usual 5k+ kms next summer or
• Sell it for what I purchased it for 8+ years ago

If the Tiger problems are diagnosable (ie: it's not of an age that it's simply falling to pieces) and solvable with the resources I've got, aim at 100k by end of 2025. If it's too 'disposable' and unsupported, move it on to someone with the time and patience to deal with it.

$1900 in Windsor. $1500 for the bike and another $300
to get a van to go get it? If the Tiger warrants long term
ownership then this move makes sense. It has <30k on it!

What do I hope? I can find the time to make it viable and ride it until it's the last one on the
road in Canada. If that happens picking up the parts bike from Windsor makes sense. Perhaps I could park it in the shed and only go to it when I need parts.

The alternative is to let the bike I've put the most miles on and have owned the longest go. My already limited brand loyalty has been stretched to breaking by the lack of support from Triumph. The Tiger replaced a 22 year old Kawasaki 1000GTR/C10 that I had no trouble finding parts and even service for. In between I had a '97 Fireblade that Honda was happy to support, but not so for Triumphs that were built up to only a few years ago.

I'd like to spend my riding years riding more than spannering. The C14/1400GTR has been dependable and with my various adjustments on it I'm still finding that I'm learning about it, though its road focus means I can't trail ride like I do on the Tiger. With the Tiger gone my accidental Kawasaki fixation (I don't go looking for them, they seem to appear when I need them to), I'm tempted to see if a KLR650 would do the dual sporting I'm missing on the Concours. It would certainly be more off road friendly than the heavier, fragile, unsupported Tiger.

Other options could be a Royal Enfield Himalayan, Tenere 700 or CRF 300 Honda (though they aren't good with bigger riders, which I am). The KLRs are plentiful, not overly expensive and well understood as the model has been going forever. I've also got a Kawasaki dealer 10 minutes from the house (as opposed to the 2+ hours for Triumph).

The long bomb would be going in a completely different direction and getting something like a Moto Guzzi V85TT, though that puts me back into potentially fragile, poorly supported European manufacturer territory (they sure are pretty though). If I'm looking for a bike to put miles, it probably isn't that one. Perhaps when I'm riding less one will find a spot in the garage.

This winter will answer this existential question:

Tiger, or not to Tiger? That is the question.

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous mileage,

Or to take arms against a sea of manufacturer unsupported troubles

And by opposing end them.

SMART Adventures and Off Road Performance Dirtbikes

 Over the long weekend I got out to SMART Adventures again for my yearly knobbly tire exercise. If you've read TMD you'll know I've tried to off road in South Western Ontario, but got stick for riding on hydro cuts and farmland and generally got nimbied right out of dual sport ownership. SMART is my release valve while thinking of ways to escape living in the one part of Canada that doesn't make off road riding easy.

If I lived anywhere else I'd have picked up the DR650 I found on a farm a couple of years ago and that would be my dedicated off road machine. My neighbor picked up a new Tenere 700 and I've long had my eye on Honda's CRF300 Rally - both of those would do the trick, though after this weekend I'm thinking a dirt focused specialist might be the way. 

Last year's SMART was an apex experience for both Max and I as we got advanced individual instruction on the off road vehicles of our choice, I even got to ride an electric machine! This year we'd planned to meet with friends at Horseshoe Resort and that gave us a discount opportunity with SMART, so I signed everyone up for the busy Saturday afternoon on the long weekend.

I initially went out on the Kawasaki I rode last year, but the gear shifter had been banged about by a previous rider and it wouldn't go into gear, so I got to switch to a Yamaha WR250F with upside down forks, high compression and proper brakes. I'd never been bothered with any of that and always thought a trail focused machine would be what I'd get as a pure dirt bike, but this Yamaha changed my mind.

Unlike the 230 I started off on or the Honda and Kawasaki 250s I rode last time, the Yamaha demands more but rewards you for it. If you can appreciate the difference between an appliance car and a sports car you can understand the difference here too. Those upside down shocks will get you across pretty much everything with incredible feel, and the brakes are precision tools, but it was the engine that took me to my next level, and eventually let me slip the surly bonds of earth and fly (!).

Trail bikes tend to be tuned for torque low down without worrying about stalling. This higher compression motor needs more revs, but when it comes on song (the exhaust snarls when you get there), it'll pull you up any hill or over any obstacle. If you're riding over whoops, it'll get both wheels off the ground too.

This turned out to be just the bike I needed just as I needed it because I probably wasn't skilled enough to appreciate it before now.  SMART put me with Adam, the brother of my instructor from last year, who did a great job of testing my limits without overwhelming me. We covered a lot of miles through the fall woods. That's a SMART hack: if you know what you're doing say you're 'expert' on the intake form. If gets you out of the kids-who-think-they-can catagory and lets you focus on improving your craft, usually one-on-one with an instructor.

The Kwak wasn't up for it, but that gave me a chance to explore the competition ready Yamaha...

Passed these guys while out on the trail - that's the dream setup.

Adam and I got deep into the forest - he's the red smudge down the trail that I'm keeping up with (because he kepts slowing to check on me). Every 10-15 minutes we'd stop and talk about technique, and then go exercise the talk.

Everyone had a good day out. The girls got out in a side by side and discovered that off roading in one of these is well within their skillsets and not at all uncomfortable. The only complaint came from Max who wanted a more extreme ATV experience as he's now expert in that. Next time he'll be sure to stress that he wants to be in the advanced group.

That Yam is the bomb! It's on my wishlist now.

Taking a 955i Tiger from Triumph Engineers to Vintage Ownership

 I'm bound and determined to keep the old Tiger in motion. Triumph has abandoned me in
terms of parts support, but there is another way and Classic Bike Magazine shows you how to find it. I used to depend on Practical Sports Bikes for keeping these pre-classics in motion, but they killed it.

Rick Parkington writes a lot about the transition from standard manufacturer supported bike ownership to vintage bike ownership, but what he's really on about is keeping a bike in motion when the plug-and-play relationship with modern bike parts isn't an option any more. For a modern Triumph that happens about 20 years after they build it (I've had older Kawasakis and Hondas that kept providing parts, but I digress).

The biggest thing to get your head around is being ready to find alternatives that meet the needs you're facing rather than following the manual and hoping for parts to arrive that you can swap in. One of my issues on a 90k+ bike is slack in the machine. The throttle stop has worn down over many miles so I've been playing with putting a spacer nut on there.

When I had it apart today I used the grinder to try two different cuts of nut to get my idle back to where it should be. The middle one gives me perhaps a mm of recovered space on the pin that catches the throttle when it returns to idle at a point that doesn't make the engine struggle.

Another one of those vintage approaches is around battling fasteners. You can never assume something will come off as it should. In this case the fastener on the throttle casing on the handlebar creates swear words.

While I had it apart today I put in two new cables (throttle and clutch). Thanks to Rogx in Germany (who are still producing new cables for the 955i Tiger which was popular there), I got two new cables with all the hardware and it arrived early and with no headache (I love dealing with Germans!).

The clutch cable was fraying by the transmission so it was well past time. My thought is that if this one lasts as long as the first one (over 90k), then I'll be happy. I ran both cables next to the existing ones to get the runs right and then removed the old ones afterwards. It was a satisfying rainy Sunday afternoon in the garage.

No complaints (other than Triumph not supporting its own machines when they are less than 20 years old). These cables both did over 90k through brutal Canadian temperature changes.

A satisfying Sunday afternoon getting the Tiger sorted. I think another couple of hours and I'll have it back in motion for the end of the riding season here.

I wrote this as I was catching up on the Indonesian Grand Prix in MotoGP after a crazy (but awesome) week at work. I lost Marc after the Valentino incident back in 2015, but I'm starting to find my Marquez fandom again...